How to build a business you actually like

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00:00welcome back to the PBC Mastery podcast everybody um we have a special guest for you today uh Kirk Kirk Williams um we spoke recently in the PPC Hub and we thought hey why not bring him on the show so um Kirk welcome um for those of you those of you who don't know who Kirk Williams is uh you're probably living under a rock um but today I want to talk to talk with him about his book primarily Stop the Scale: Building a Digital Agency You Actually Like U but he also did a t talk recently about uh uh creating goals for your business um that fit for you as a person and and are are right for you um but anyway before I take the words out of your mouth Kirk that's what I want to talk to you about today um but thanks thanks for coming on and I'm super excited for uh what we're going to be talking about yeah absolutely like I was saying before I I'll chat with you and Bob anytime so yeah man glad to hear that so um yeah so you did a you did a TED Talk recently um and it's it's dropping I think by the time since it's dropping soon by the time that this is coming out it's already out and we will link it in the show notes um but I think the the the topic that you spoke about you know creating goals for your life setting goals for your life that fit your personality and your own personal desires um I think that's really crucial and I would love to hear you talk about that because it it really triggered something in me when when you um explained it when we were talking in the bpc hub um and it you know helped me rethink certain decisions and and

01:37redefine what I want to do in my life and my business um and I also uh spoke about it um with with friends and I have a few friends that are kind of stuck in their in their in their work in their career um and um right after we did um after we did did the interview with you um you kind of triggered me to do a life audit so to speak so I I just asked myself questions like okay where am I right now where do I want to go what fits me uh what do I like what do I dislike Etc and then I spoke to my friends about that uh that I did that and like oh man that's that's really cool um so I would love to hear from you because I think those things are really impactful and sure we can talk about PPC and tactics and strategies but I think it's these types of things that help you take a step back to re-evaluate everything in your life that is the most meaningful and impactful on the long term for you as a person so I would to hear from your perspective um what was the T talk about and why did you decide to do a t talk about that topic yeah definitely so yeah it should it should be dropping any any day now actually so I'm I'm excited when it does um so and and I I have to know it is Ted X not Ted so there is a difference they they they tell they tell us that we're supposed to make sure to note that so there you go I did my legal Duty that's a disclaimer and noted that I did I did the disclaimer right um yeah I mean so I I spoke on success like business success and specifically specifically contrasting what I have often seen is business

03:15success which is often Revenue tied so so like when you talk about success when any when anyone talks about success I love asking this online just like what do you mean by successful right because it's almost like there's this massive assumption that everyone makes whenever they're like you know there were 20 successful people over there and you're like well like what does that even mean right and almost every time I think even without the speaker realizing it they are talking something to do with money like it is tied to wealth it is tied to money and it's tied to revenue and that's really interesting because like you okay like well let's start pulling on that threat like what it like how much money like what what level of money is successful because even even the difference between if you are like let's just say it's it's it's a monetary number if you're successful in the Philippines that looks very different than if you're successful in Silicon Valley right those two numbers just just being able to to rent an apartment in a place like Silicon Valley right um you wouldn't be able to survive on the successful income of someone in a different country and all that stuff right so even then there's just like to me there's just like problems with that even just at at a practical level but overall um you start pulling on that Revenue thread even more and you start to see things like okay like like how many people who have attained money and sometimes like status is included in there too so I tied that like wealth and status and that okay so many people who have attained that are actually like content and happy and a lot of times you'll see doses of happiness but but

04:54certainly not all all the time and then I so I quoted a few people like Jim Carrey has is a kind of a famous quote where he basically is like I wish everyone could get rich and famous and get everything they ever dream for so they can see that's not the answer right and and that's often why you do see like highly depressed people who have attained a lot and part of that is because they've actually attained that that material possession those material possessions and realized like wow that actually like there's something more right so I think it was it was kind of like like over years and years of kind of thinking through all that stuff and then starting my own business some of that for me with starting my own business and I I admit this is like I I have no idea what I'm doing um I have a little bit more idea now that I'm 12 years in but especially when I started no idea what I'm doing right and so I think that actually impacted the way I I measure success because I just I I didn't even know how I I didn't even have a lot of those tools to know how to attain just like significant growth money growth sort of things so for me it was almost like Clarity from day one of like what am I trying to do I'm I'm just not trying to get as rich as possible um I'm trying to like I'm I'm trying to like have like have like build a family trying to be content in my lifestyle and my family and those sort of things and I would like to do that in a way that allows me to pursue that so um so the the three points of success so basically my my tedex talk was okay so that actually is probably longer than the actual intro in my tedex talk but like the tedex talk was basically like okay don't think success should be moneyb

06:30based so like I would I would submit these three things and that is and specifically I'm thinking business ownership but I think a lot of these things do transfer into other areas of our life so so what does business like what does success in your business look like I think it it's at least these three things uh like are you achieving the purpose for which your business exists um so for me I'm a Google Ads agency owner like the purpose for which my business exists is to provide really great Google Ads services for our clients I want to make sure I'm doing that well so to me like part of the definition of success is if I'm not doing that well so even if I'm even if I'm wealthy like let's say I've lied to a whole lot of clients I have no idea what I'm doing but I'm really good at selling and I actually have a lot of money in the bank I would suggest that that person is not actually successful especially longterm because they're not actually like achieving their business purpose um and and I think long term that would that would show up right enough of those clients would eventually see like that that that struggle would be there but in that way like you're not you're not a Google Ads agency then right um so I think that's kind of an important aspect and then and then sustainability I do think is part of that so I knowe like money is not everything for success but money is not nothing the double negative there uh like you do need some form of like profitability and that and like that so so like that does need to be part of it but not just profitability even just sustainability in other ways too like a business business needs to needs to think of ways that especially in its local community and its local context what are ways that your business could fail and how do you guard against

08:07that so that's kind of looking at Yeah we actually do need to make sure our business is is like is is financially tenable and is able to do that too right so I do think that's a mark of success and then um and then the third one was does your business as a business owner does it does it allow you to does it allow you to pursue your own mental wellness and then I I tacked in those um like employees and and employees and even family members around because a lot of times what I've I've heard over the years for business owners is just kind of this like yeah well you know I I powered through for you know 20 years and just sacrificed everything my family everything um Just So eventually I could I could have that payday you know I mean you're not guaranteed that you'll even make it to retirement right but um at at what cost did you sacrifice all like your own health that could be physical health that could be mental health um you know there's just there's a whole lot of aspects around that because if you talk to the majority of people over the age of 60 this is very anecdotal but if you talk to the majority of people over the age of 60 a huge part of what they talk about is is their family and relationships and a lot of times there's regret or or there's like there's happiness where they look at that because as you get older you just start to as as like your time begins to shrink with what you have left you do start to think through like what's actually important right and so I just I just kind of tied all that in I had I had some different stories and stuff especially like my grandpa was a crucial part of my of my kind of thinking with that and just tied in some of that stuff just to point people to hey pursue those three things rather than scaling your business as aggressively as possible

09:45yeah and and I think then you're successful so and um so could you maybe talk about that about your your grandfather because that sounds like that is one of the most if you want to at least that sounds like that is one of the most important pieces here um because I'm actually curious where where this came from for you because it sounds like this is something that you have been thinking about and observing uh from the start of your career as I as I hear it from you now um and I I think from what I know about you now since we've uh spoken a couple of times you seem to me like you're a really observant type of guy and and analytical and and you oversee things uh on the philosophical side um but what is that um yeah where where does that come from you know um uh and and maybe like that story with your with your grandfather because I'm really curious like is that something that was already there from the start or is it something that developed over time uh what is that for you I was laughing when you said that because this is on my desk so one of my employees as a kind of as a funny gift got this for me and it's it's this little plaque that says the boss which is kind of funny because that's not really how we roll but says the boss Chief ponderer and overthinker there you go um that yes it's a joke because it can get in the way of us sometimes where it's like all right Kirk let's let's make a decision and stop thinking right um yeah I mean I I think as with all of us there's going to be a whole lot of influences that that event like eventually you find yourself looking

11:22back on this path that you're on and you're like whoa how'd I get there more often than not it's not one or two things right it's just it's just a whole lot of little things that that kind of guide you along these Paths of life and um so for me like probably probably the top ones would be um like I'm trying to think it's interesting I don't know if I've ever really thought specifically about that but probably some of the top ones would be like my location uh yeah my location my lack of experience my faith my family that that sort of thing those kind of all Impact this so location this is kind of interesting because I am I am a Midwest us guy through and through I mean that's I've lived all my life in the midwest aside from moving to Montana about 10 years ago which kind of is almost like the Midwest West because basically everyone who lives in Montana moved here from the Midwest so um so the Montana is midwesterners who want less people around that's basically Montana and uh and so so some of that is and then so my Grandpa would be a part of that like my parents all that we come like I grew up in a small town so I think there's this aspect of of small town small town local community that um a lot of times especially young people can want to flee and as because they want the excitement of the bigger city that sort of thing and there's some something interesting about the local community that that is really there's a lot of healthy aspects of that and so I think there's just some where I'm I was aware of that like it was maybe ingrain in me more than I realized and just like like like some examples would be things

13:01like um you know back especially back in the day when things were just not so um commoditized and just spread everywhere right when it was when it wasn't just the case where like you could buy an avocado during the winter because like yeah they ship avocados from somewhere in the world that grows them I don't even know where right that's just not the way the world used to work and so you were far more dependent on your local community and your neighbors for your actual life it wasn't just like venience thing it was like you knew that you had to interact well with that guy over there because when your ky's got out he was going to come help you mend your fence and you were going to go help him mend his fence or you know whatever it might be and you would be interacting with each other your kids were in school that sort of thing and I think there's something about a local community that Fosters that that I think has been lost so I think there's some level of kind of being and and so especially in those sort of communities you see a lot of I don't know how to say it you see just a lot of like like contentment and peace not always okay so I'm I'm painting in Broad brush I'm painting in Broad brush but a lot of times like people are you know that's why a lot of times like small small communities small towns are often seen as boring for you know young people who want excitement want stuff that's because over time like there's it's kind of like that's that's not a that's not a bug that's a feature right of that is there's this l where people have realized man I can I can sit around drink tea on my porch watch this Sunset and like that's a that's a pretty relaxing way to live my life and even if

14:38I don't have as much money as if I moved to the city over there but then I'd be dealing with the hustle and bustle and the traffic and the stress and the burnout right and so I think that all that to say I think there's pros and cons of everything but all that to say that's some of probably the influence is like I actually grew up in that so I experienced that and felt that a little bit and then kind of Shifting more into to that busyness mindset and kind of always in the back of my mind having this level of like almost this like semi yearning for that mentality I think is is part of that um so that's that's part of it I I think I think my faith Works into that like how I view the world how I view you know I think I I do I do think that there is a God who has created all of us right that we that we have a relationship we have to figure that out and that does influence specifically the way I interact with other people um and like that's not just a throwaway phrase there some level where if I if I think like if Jesus tells me hey do do unto others as you would have them do unto you like treat like treat miles like I would want miles to treat me right pretty practical lot a lot of religions have that sort of mentality right um but like that's that weighs into as I'm thinking hey how should I build my business because then I'm thinking specifically how like my I just had a client I'm not making this up I just had a client emailed me this morning and say hey we're we're struggling a little bit with our our finance stuff right now we're just in this tough week as we I I think like buying stuff for Black Friday that sort of thing can you push like can you push our our fee uh their fee is due today like can you push that back you know till Friday I like I I me hesitate absolutely no

16:18problem sure you know like kind of one of those things of just like yeah why why wouldn't I right um that's what I would want to be treated where I in that circumstance so I think it's just the way that I think I do try to act that way towards my clients like how would I want an agency to manage my ad campaigns and then same with my employees and and I will say and this is where it starts to get into the Practical stuff is like that has limited our growth absolutely that mindset has limited our growth because I do try to be fairly generous with how I act towards our employees and clients and absolutely that's limited our ability to be quite as profitable as we could and like and take on that next employee or something like that because I'm I'm a little bit more risk averse because of that um because hey I I wouldn't want to be laid off because my boss you know made maybe a a decision that was a little bit more growth focused and it ended up not working out so I'd like to be a little more careful with saving things like that I I'll I'll stop talking and let you get another question but I think all of that is part of what weighs into into this and then finally maybe the third quick puzzle piece too would be just witnessing agency burnout because I was not part of an agency um before this I was just working in-house as a PPC and so then all of a sudden I start this like Consulting thing now I'm like hiring people and again like I I just have no concept for agencies and as I've gone over the years I've realized how much of a known thing agency burnout is and that kind of goes back to I was saying before with like employees stuff like that I think that's part of in increasing where was just like I think this is just stupid you know you just have you have

17:55people and not not everyone so I'm painting broad brush but typically I think burnout comes from a place and I do think part of where that place can come from is an obsession with scaling so rapidly that you take on clients you probably shouldn't take on for whatever reason and then that impacts how the employees like what they have to deal with you know what the crap that sometimes they have to deal with with these employees stuff like that and and it's because you're trying to grow but then like your employees are stressed burned out that sort of thing I think all of that was part of this thing of just like I just don't want to do that um so there that that's where it came from yeah that that's great man and uh yeah keep keep keep going for sure like I can I can I can listen to this for for a long time but um yeah so I I totally agree that agency burnout is is real um and especially in PPC it's it's all changing so fast and there's different reasons why I think people um Can potentially struggle with uh mental mental Wellness um and especially now around Black Friday Friday you know it's the the busiest part busiest month of the year if you're in e-commerce um you know if you're not working with the right clients they might demand a lot of you and if there's not enough communication there that that might cause issues if you're working at an agency and your manager is not really looking out for you there's different reasons why why you can burn out and I think that people are not definitely not talking about this enough especially from the male perspective I do I do think that uh women um uh uh often talk about these things more naturally and easier but I think especially for men

19:33it's it's definitely and that's also painting in Broad brush as you said but um I think um with men um it's so it's so important to to to always be open and talk about these things and not just rough through you know like because at some point if if you're really like at your tax at your limit then the burnout is going to kick in so much harder so I I think that's really crucial to to to you know bring awareness to and talk about and I think your approach to building your business is already the um the biggest thing that you can do to sort of limit that in in in how that happens for you whether you burnout or your employee or the people that work uh work for you work with you in ZATO because if you can U build a a nice environment where people feel uh appreciated and and happy to work and you're working with nice clients then I think you're already ahead of that moment where you can really burn out and burnout can happen in any time any moment because there's more factors that play into this than just work absolutely but I but I do think that um the way that you're building ZATO is is a really healthy environment from what it sounds like and um could you maybe talk about uh a bit about um you know the goals that you set maybe not doesn't necessarily have to be granular but the things that you remind yourself of When You're Building um when you're building your business because and here's maybe another sort of follow-up question do you ever because it sounds like you have it figured out like or maybe not that's not the word not figured out but like you have a good

21:11vision of where you how you want to your business and life to be but do you ever feel as though you're a little bit off the track or you're chasing goals that you realize all of a sudden like hey what am I actually doing because you know that you you mentioned that you're definitely not into maximizing profit or Revenue at all cost um but does that do you keep reminding yourself of that or is there ever are there ever moments where you um yeah sort of get off the track or what do you do in those instances yes let me yeah let me let me think of how best to to go to go at that um you know when I when I think of of let's say our our goals my goals the business goals it's funny as even as you're saying that I was starting to think at first I thought yeah I don't really have goals and then I was like well that's not true because kind of like what I've already been talking about in some ways is like a picture of goals and so maybe maybe like my goals are not really they're not really like here's what I'm trying to do with my agency so um yeah you know I you know my objective is to be at eight figures in five years and then you know whatever um so so many times those are what we hear we think of goals which again again tend to be monetary based right I almost think that my goals are like life goals and character goals and philosophy goals right kind of going back to what I was talking about before I mean I I look at so well I forgot to

22:48mention like I I have a family so I have six kids right there's eight people in my there's seven other people in my life that I that I need to invest in and so again like that's not everyone and that means people who don't have that have an advantage in business over me truly enough um and I'm okay with that because again like my goal isn't primar my life goal isn't primarily to make ZATO turn into some large thing like a a part of my life goal is to like build into my kids and make sure that I'm investing time with with my wife and and you know investing time in my marriage and know stuff like that right and so those sort of things and then and then just character goals right like I'm I'm trying to become a better person I'm like I I I'm in ther I'm in active therapy I'm I read books all the time on like emotional intelligence and like growing that sort of thing you know processing things like probably like all of us should do like here's things I have in my childhood how do that work into what I do how do I need to kind of change how I think right that's just like that like that's not really unique to me even though some of my things like I have I have OCD right some of those things might be unique to me um but everyone has their unique things and so to me I look at all of that and say like that's that's what I'm trying to do I'm trying to be a better person I'm trying to spend time with my family I'm trying to like make sure that my employees are able to do those things with their their people I'm trying to make sure that our like our clients are happy and like I said that we're achieving our business

24:26purpose if I I want to be true to my word so if if that means that I need to keep learning uh if I if that means I need to keep learning ga4 right so that we can continue to give excellent PBC services to our clients like I'm going to do that right so I think that's where I look at all of that stuff and like that's what I'm aiming at and I think like the business kind of comes along with that in some ways um yeah you asked you ask like what do you do as you you get off uh you know sometimes off those goals absolutely there are times where I'm start you know I'll notice like again for me it's it's it tends to be more personal um but yeah there might be like let's say business related there might be times where I'm thinking man you know I I think that uh demand gen campaigns are coming out right in Google Ads so demand gen campaigns are coming out and so hey we we really in like like we really need to make sure we're keeping up with that so maybe we need to kind of reset and rethink as a as a as a company and and take some specific time next week to like dig into demand gen together and do that sort of thing I I don't know that might have been a bad example but just trying to stay up more on where where I'm off on those those personal things the business things and then adjust as it as as I go and some of those being on the character side like like I can I can tell um and some and this helps to have like my wife is like very helpful with

26:03feedback right she's she's very willing to communicate um and and like she she owns a photography business and so we we communicate with each other a lot on this stuff um of just like hey maybe we're starting to get a little bit too focused on the business stuff maybe like next week really we need to pull back and shift and make sure we're doing some stuff with the kids um or like or there will be a time my wife's October is very photography focused my November is very ZATO focused because e-commerce we're very e-commerce heavy right so we kind of we kind of know that and we kind of adjust our active if you will personal goals around those shifting Seasons as well together um so I don't yeah yeah there's I'm not sure that's overly helpful but do do you uh do you talk about so you guys you and your wife talk about that uh frequently um it sounds sounds to me like you're often taking a step back to oversee like okay what's the direction that we're going into and and where we headed and and what lies behind us so um I think that's that's crucial you know that that piece of communication um you know especially as you as you start to to have if you have a family or you start to start to build one um so you know I can imagine that at this point since you're in business for for such a long time that it becomes second nature but do you do you have any systems in place to help you remind you of those of those things that are important to you or or is it all in your in your in your head at this point or what does that look like for

27:41you I I don't think I'm very good at the goal um at that I don't think I'm great at at systems for hey let's let's remember to keep yeah to get what what you said before um about what you do I'm like man I should I should probably do something like that like your life audit right maybe a helpful time is um New Year's right A lot of times New Year's resolutions get this negative hit but I think kind of like what we're talking about rather than look at resolutions as here are all these promises I'm going to break to myself maybe that's a great time for us just naturally as a people to be like hey let's just let's just revisit like where was my focus this year what what do I want to do like where where am I in life like let me be present right now that's a big part of it like let me be very present right now the more that I I just sit and I'm present and realize I think that that helps me very much clarify exactly what's important to me right now and what I need to be doing and so sometimes that might be as simple as like literally taking a day off so that you can actually so that you can actually mentally relax and maybe maybe be a little bit more uh focused so I have uh I have a team member here um Eric he's one of our he he's kind of the director of PBC that is directly over our account managers he and I sometimes will go on like we'll go on like a a 14 mile hike on the mountains and just like and and just talk about more of the general like business goal stuff like that and we don't like there's usually like three things I'll write down that I want to

29:18chat with but it's kind of one of those like wherever the conversation takes us and I every single time we come back there's just some clarity of something bigger Maybe in the business that hadn't thought of before right um we have mental health days for our employees for something similar um so every month this is in addition to PTO and all that stuff like every month we have what's PTO yeah oh sorry paid time off oh okay okay okay okay yeah yeah got it yeah I'm glad I'm glad you asked yeah yeah and it is funny like yeah everywhere in the US does does paid time off better or I'm sorry everywhere in the world does paid time off better yeah yeah um but one of the ways I try to combat that as a US business owner is to actively work in at least another 12 days a year where it's kind of this like I kind of tell them like it's kind of this forced like I forced them to be mentally relaxed and what I mean by that is like this is as if you're coming you know this is as if you're sitting down at your desk in your house or coming into the office where it's a work day you know like this is not the to to you know to go and get all those errands off that you know whatever that you want to do this is a work day which means whatever will make you mentally healthy like whatever will de-stress you just a little bit whatever that might be that's what you should do today and so some people some people actually some people do get some of those errands done because they're like like they they have this weight lifted you know like got the laundry like yeah like watch some TV

30:56while I got the laundry Dawn man that's like that is literally the best gift they could get or some they just go sit in the coffee shop and read a book so uh I have you know one of the guys I think he went on like a 20 mile run in the mountains it was like all right you do you um but again yeah so so all that to say I think there are probably ways that you can plan in some of those things into your organization for even your employees to do too um so that that'll help them uh because that's just going to help your organization for everyone to to have a better focus of what their character and and purposes and that um but but yeah some some of those things for me so yeah I I that's the the probably the number one Golden Nugget that I got from that from that book is that mental health day which I think is so crucial and I've everybody that I talk about you know when I when I mention hey you should read this book that's usually the number one thing that I explain because it's so yeah it is it is really unique man like um uh I don't know how what what's the average amount amount of pay time off pay days off that you get in the US let's say what's average 15 or so per year 10 I don't know probably probably get a little tricky because you have like some holidays and things like that too that work yeah but that's still like in a Netherlands I think it's around anywhere between 25 and 30 per year is is is normal um I think the legal minimum is like 20 or so but usually it's like 25 to 30 and then there's the public holidays as well on top of that um but I always remember that in the US it's so much more hardcore um so if you offer your uh employees one day off per month

32:36to do to focus on Mental Health that's it is really huge um and I can imagine that's also one of the reasons why people uh tend to stay with you for a long time because you know that would signal to me that you as my employer are really looking out for me because you don't have to do that you don't have to give them that day um but that is beneficial for for that person is beneficial for ZATO uh for for for the whole ecosystem so yeah that's that that's really unique and I don't think you should underestimate what how how big it is that you're that you're doing that especially since you're from the US where it's so where it is so so hard core on the you know on the grind and and stuff like that so um yeah that's that's probably the number one thing that I remembered um but um so here's a a question so I I I I can understand that some people uh they might think to themselves like yeah okay Kirk you've built this nice agency ZATO it's a fits well within your life and your goals yada yada yada um but for you is it's easy but we're just launching and we we need to get money in order to survive um what what can you generally say to people in those um yeah in those situations yeah so I I referenced this in my tedex talk um no so that's that's where I think my three principles of success still hold up so are you achieving your business purpose are you sustainable are you free to pursue mental Wellness one of the things I knowe almost this caveat um is I I don't think this means they they um are not going to be times I I

34:15just I I have a bad habit of using double negatives um I do think there are times I do think there are times especially early on in a business where you know pushing through in a Sprint is is going to be important is just something that has to be done right I and actually in my tedex talk I shared an example of a time in my life and in my business where things were just really hard and I just kind of had to show up to the office and grind but I think it's really important to see those as the exceptions rather than the rule um and you know so it might be kind of one of these like and and maybe that's part of what you do where like we're counting the costs right where you look at something you're like hey if you know we've done some projections like this fits you know this fits into everything of of what we're talking about I think if we if we put a year into this we really work hard we're really you know we're excited I I remember the early days of business like it was mentally healthy for me to like to to work long hours and write blog posts that I was excited about I I get it like that's so again like I think it's really important to to to note that stuff and that that's also why I try not to put my own stuff too much into those three business success principles um because we're all going to be different we all have you know different levels of bandwidth and all that stuff but I but I really do think that it's important to look long like to be able to look past that long term and say okay if we power through and do this for a year or six months or whatever um the problem is is what what happens if

35:53you start like making those sacrifices on your health than your time and your family and stuff for three years for five years right I think that's where you you might need to kind of start thinking that but even then even then like the the free to pursue ment uh free to pursue Wellness um I think I think I said mental Wellness before and I just meant like wellness because I think that includes like physical and spiritual and and mental and all that stuff right Community um I I I do think that it's still really important to work that into the equation as you're considering ing whatever X move would be and that's like if your if your physical body and your mental body and your family if everything is going to take a hit for like an entire year is is starting that business truly like truly worth that cost um or or or is there another way like like what are and this is where to me it's just one of those like let's stop assuming that it is and let's start getting because people are amazing and creative and Innovative so like what are some other ways that we could do that and and again like I would be very surprised if one of the ways isn't to back off of those projections maybe not take that outside funding where all that pressure is coming from because if you actually start look gosh maybe the pressure on you to sacrifice all that stuff maybe that's from the outside funding and it's not actually what you're interested in doing because you could grow your business you know to 200,000 the first year instead of A Million by not doing that outside funding and you've done this cool

37:32bootstrap thing you had the time to spend with your family you're still figuring it out and it's slower than you wanted but also like you're still living your life and you're still building a thing you just you just haven't scaled up dramatically which by the way as soon as you start taking outside funding you're starting like the amount of money you're getting from that actually starts to decrease so much too you know talk to owners who have talk to people Founders who have sold especially those who have given away a lot and by the time they actually get their payday sometimes it's pretty shocking how little they actually get for the amount of sacrifice they and everyone else put in right rather than if they just slowed it down and bootstrapped it the whole way right so I don't know I think I think there's just a lot to think about there but I'm not saying I think that I think it's helpful to clarify those things like I'm not saying that you'll never have to work hard or long hours ever um I just think it's it's you just weigh the costs and and sure that that's an exception rather than a rule thing um I'm also not saying that you could you should never grow um I don't I don't think that's true I think it's more of this like this kind of scaling rapidly at the expense of everything in you and around you and everything that that seems to be almost this accepted cultural thing increasingly that I just I just I just disagree with yeah and then it comes down to what's important to you as as a person because I know do you know who Alex Orosi is yeah yeah so um you know I can imagine that when I look at his content um I love I love what he's doing and uh and and he's has a lot of good

39:09things to share but he also says that he loves to just work all day every day and he met his wife um and they they married with like sort of they they discussed together like yeah we want to build this big business together so they're in it for the business so you know I can imagine when people look at him they're like yeah Al work hard and I and I grind and and and all that stuff and for him that's perfect because that's exactly what he wants um but I think that as you look at it for yourself for a lot of people um that might cause additional stress because you think like oh man I I wish I was able to work 14 hours per day six days per week but I can't and that's giving me additional stress so then it comes back to you know what fits you and your and your personal goals and I think then you need to constantly remind yourself of um you know what you want to get out of life and what your own limitations are and uh I know for a fact he doesn't have kids so it's different than for example you if you have six kids it's it's a totally different different scenario um the only thing I'll know like yeah I agree I agree in large part but then the only thing I'll note on that is I think that sometimes so I I just I just listen to a podcast episode called if the podcast is if book could kill I don't know if you've ever heard of it but um it's it's two it's two people they're they're pretty funny they talk about like popular airport type books and they kind of go through them and like kind of tear them apart right um and uh you know probably not everything they say is accurate but they have a lot of good good things that they're questioning

40:45these books one of the ones they looked at was Tim Ferris is four-hour work week and to me to to me T Tim Ferris is like U like Alex that you mentioned in terms of you know know back in the day Tim was like the guy everyone wanted to build the business like Tim the four-hour work week and he's talking about like grinding and doing all this stuff so that so that you have the freedom to to this is what they were joking about so that you have freedom to like hire cheap labor that they'll grind so that you don't have to um that seems to be one of the tenants ofs but anyways what they're laughing about is like since then you know years later whatever he's like he's he's basically been like yeah I burned out and like he's like yeah I burned out and now he's like you know talks about um almost like I hate to say it like this I I don't know this too well so I'm not trying to knock the guy but it's almost like now you know he was a guru of like burnout and now he's like a guru of like health and wellness and stuff like that and it was almost like man maybe you should have had a little bit of the health and wellness stuff in the beginning part so that's the only that's the only concern I have is sometimes people are like oh yeah no I I get it Kirk but I'm super excited I'm pumped and like we're gonna go and we're g to build this thing because that's what I'm excited about you're like yeah you actually might be burning yourself out now without realizing it yeah so you actually maybe still need to be a little careful of that because I W like got I'm almost willing to bet like 20 bucks that in five years you know ramosi is you know now talking about burnout culture and how he did that b burnout culture yeah it could could very well be anyways I don't know that yeah no I I think you you know everybody has their own limits

42:24and sometimes you have to discover what those limits are you can only discover by going over those limits and then you're in retrospect you're like oh maybe I should have done that a bit differently now I'm GNA you know be a bit more nuanced in how I how I talk about certain certain things um so um how how important are um and this is this is probably the last like bigger thing that we can we can talk about for the next five six minutes or so is how important are the your the ideal clients for you because if you look at your your agency you want to build it in a specific way and you do value mental Wellness or Wellness in general how important is the your ideal client type and what do you do to make sure or or at least increase the chances that you hire the right clients instead of the wrong ones so I think that's incredibly important for people and it also goes back to the example of yeah but I I need I need money to grow I I need money to survive blah blah blah I I do think that people especially in bpc if you get a lead everybody's just happy that they got a new client whereas you know you should probably be a bit more strict in who you work with and and if it's an if it's a match so I'm just curious like what what's your approach to that yes I I'm so glad you brought this up because actually I was I was thinking about this earlier with even in the goals part of it it didn't quite fit there but it kind of did um and so I'm really glad we're we're talking about that because I think this is such a crucial part to all this um so and the reason I say that is because

44:02you know what you asked before is well how do you you know sometimes do you get off your goals that sort of thing and and what i' had forgotten to note is every once in a while yes when we when we take on a client we shouldn't have taken on and that is actually always this like reminder of um of that like it's it's almost this it like reminds us to to to reflect on what are we trying to do and then how do how do we get back to that so anyways yeah as we as we just kind of think about clients I think this is such a crucial part at least for service businesses and the way we look at it is we we have certain things that I would say are like these core boundaries where we we I would I would rather shut the business down than than deal with certain client situations and so that really helps that's going to be different for me than it is for other people but I think it's really helpful to kind of start to determine like what are those boundaries for you and then what is what is some of the other stuff where it's like preferences or like this is how you would like to do it but then in tough times maybe maybe you sacrifice from those some of those other things because when the tough times come and this is I think where it's really important when those when the tough times come I still think that you have you have to stick to those core boundaries otherwise then that's where all of the other stuff like the burnout and the you know all of that other stuff that you that you started the business to get away from the first place or whatever your goals are once those are

45:39starting to be sacrificed like you're not achieving that purpose so why are you doing that so so navigating those core boundaries so um we just as an agency between like 2023 2023 we're all going to look back on 2023 in like years as kind of the year that we all knew as we look back of 2020 Vision that like it just decimated marketing agencies but like we're in it right now and there's still not a ton of people talking about it I just saw ran fishkin post a little video last week about this which was super interesting um 2023 so we and so this is like as I talked to friends who are business agency owners you know large agencies small agencies large agencies tended to tended just to lay off people small agencies midsize agencies either laid off or closed um there was just a diff it's it's been overall fairly difficult overall in the economic um framework as it gets to large as it gets to agencies we lost 43% of our Revenue in July and August of this year um we like so part of and this is part of how I try to run the business try to have money in the bank for difficult times try to just have have some ability to be able to navigate difficult times and yet you know when you lose almost half of your Revenue there's some level of like okay H how long can we do this right yeah um we have in the last like I should look just to see I think in the last 35 to 40 days now from time of recording this we've

47:16gained probably 60% of our Revenue we've grown because we needed to replace basically all of that and then we all actually landed a few more clients on top of that as well we're not a large agency um so so all that to say some of that the reason I say that is just like we literally just came out of a time where I was asking these questions in very very real time so this is not this is not ideology here this is I'm having these internal conversations a month ago and that is we just get this lead should should we pursue it or not even though we're looking at our bank account we're like I'd really like to pursue this so we could cover recover some of that loss Revenue right and to me that's where you start looking at your core boundaries and there were times where we where we looked at someone I said they are they are the type of client that if we would land them I like they like I again kind of that like I would rather have us eventually go out of business than than have them as a client because of the you know some of these core boundaries so some of those for us would be things like like if they are if they are abusive to our account account managers verbally you know that that typically is what you see with agencies especially distributed so like especially like verbally we just I just don't put up with that like if we have if we have someone like will always treat you with respect we expect that as well if we're just in the sales process and we're just getting like complete disrespect negativity criticism stuff like that that's just that's just we're out you know like it's it's stuff like

48:54that um so so then we have more of our then on top of that so we have kind of those core boundaries that we know and then on and then on top of that then we have um more of the this would be ideal and in tough in more difficult times we're a little more likely to take risks on the ideal boundaries than normal so in a really awesome time so like right now we're basically like I said we're we're basically maxed out a bandwidth at this point just send a lead this morning just to letting them know like hey you can join our weight list but like can't take you on um when that comes then like we raise the level of who we want to work with kind of those boundary filtering we raise that pretty high where we're just looking like we just really you know if we do get to a point where you know we have some bandwidth that opens up then we're looking at like we want to find the client that is just we mesh in in every possible way and some of that for us is things like um how do they view growth long-term growth are like does their philosophy align with how we think if someone tells us we want to grow 200% in the next three months that's a huge red flag for us because I don't even think that's it's typically not even possible but also like that might not be a great fit for us um yeah if someone uh I'm trying to I'm trying think off top of my head what some of the other the others are like that um if someone's in an industry that's not typically one where we have a

50:33lot of experience you know again that that might be one where we'll we'll just let them know you know we don't have a ton of experience in this but we think we can do well with you if we want to otherwise we might just you know pass on them in in a better time things things like that are more of examples where we're looking at who will be a great fit for us and will work well within us because again that goes into all of the pH philosophy stuff like the way we do communication is kind of different part of AG avoid avoiding agency burnout is like our our team basically doesn't work nights and weekends which is is fairly rare in agency life um and again like that's typically something that we're looking for just ensuring that we're aligned with that if someone wants us to be on hand 247 that's not going to be a fit with our our business philosophy I'm not even saying that's wrong of them to want that I'm saying I know that we're not going to be a good because of that um and so I think those are all ways that we try to look with so so so all that to say then as you're building this business that aligns with who you are and your goals as you're able to find that those clients then you can you can bring in those who are more aligned with you so that you can continue with your purpose and goals if you're just constantly aligning with clients or you know business partners who are not aligned with your goals right you're literally not going in the same direction and you're going to have constant frustration as you're doing that um and the last thing I'll note because someone might be listening to this and they're kind of like okay well gee you know must be nice to be able to pick the clients you work with right because again that's where you limit

52:09growth um and to me that's where then maybe the thing to do on there is just like we just we just really try to lean into marketing and sales really well with content and things like that so that we have the ability to those leads and be picky so that's a lot of times where I've done a ton of work over the years on that side on content and stuff like that to build that that inbound flywheel and actually that's a crucial part of it like you'll be able to be more picky on clients if if you have the leads coming in so yeah yeah and then that's actually um I think we can we can go again for another hour in another episode but that was definitely something that I also wrote down like uh we could talk about that in uh in the future um about the the impact of your personal brand on you know being able to build your your business around your life uh because I do think I do agree that as you said um through that you you you are much more uh able to to say no and cherry pick between specific clients you know uh if you have leads coming in because especially when it's inbound then people will already uh sort of a pre-filter because you're not reaching out to them they're reaching out to you and you can check them and they already know that they want to work with you so they probably know a little bit about you and your approach to to business uh so I'm sure that that has a a big impact on that as well but that's something for uh for a future episode um I think we can uh round it off here so uh this was this was really nice man um like I said

53:47I I really enjoy talking to you about these these things and uh I don't think we spoke much about PPC once again and I think that's that's actually really cool because um these are these are really important topics U for people at agencies Freelancers inous as well if you're just in your career it doesn't really matter you always have to be centered around um you know what you want uh take from life and and and what you want to give to people um so uh yeah the last note is um maybe what's next for you and uh how can people connect with you yeah uh what's next um for the most part just doing the same old like just just keeping on doing what I'm doing however one thing so every every year I've been trying to do some like major content thing yeah so it's either a course I put out or a book or you know this this past year was tedex that was actually a ton of work um next year my goal is to uh to totally overhaul my PBC ponderings book and do like a revised a revised version of that there's just there's just stuff in there that's outdated even though it's I mean it's four years old um which in PBC world is pretty old so I just I just want to go through that and totally overhaul it maybe maybe take out a chapter maybe add a chapter you know rewrite stuff so that that's probably going to be my big project this coming year is is try to really update that and get that back into 2024 mode so um as far as online where to find me I'm PPCKirk pretty much everywhere um and uh ZATO is my business zatomarketing.com so all right great well thanks Kirk and

55:26thanks everyone for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode thank you